BONUS: Psychedelics | Beyond Asian Meets No Stone Unturned

Dear Listeners, this is a bonus episode for all of you on a topic close to my heart: Psychedelics.
I was invited by Frank and Cynic to guest on their podcast, No Stone Unturned, to talk about my experiences with psychedelics, the differences between the classical psychedelics: LSD, Psilocybin Mushrooms, and Ayahuasca, how to prepare for a psychedelic journey, whether psychedelics are for everyone, and much more!

Enjoy this fun bonus episode, and stay tuned for the next regular episode on Beyond Asian!

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Chinese-Canadian Psychiatrist On the Asian Human Condition (Part 2 of 2)
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Speakers: Sen, Frank & Cynic

[00:00:04]Hello, everyone this next episode is a bonus one for you on a topic close to my heart. Psychedelics. This is a special interview where I was invited by Frank and Cynic from the podcast. No Stone Unturned to talk about my experiences in the psychedelic world

[00:00:21]You're going to be hearing about my experiences of the similarities and differences between classic psychedelics. How to prepare for a psychedelic journey. If psychedelics are for everyone and much more


[00:00:34] No Stone Unturned is a podcast about the funny, the crazy, the mundane and the absurd things that we deal with in our day to day.

[00:00:42]Your hosts, Frank and Cynic we'll tackle every topic under the sun without fear or taboo. Everything is on the table as they leave No Stone Unturned.


[00:00:52]Frank and Cynic have a few funny and interesting segments leading up to our interview together. If you want to get the full feel of their show, listen through the entire episode. If you'd like to skip ahead to our interview start listening at minute 14. Without further ado here's your bonus episode

[00:01:11] Frank: [00:01:13] What's up guys, small disclaimer, for today's episode. This is Frank

[00:01:17] Cynic: [00:01:17] and Cynic

[00:01:18] Frank: [00:01:18] this episode. We're going to be talking about psychedelics. We want to go ahead and inform everyone that we're talking about our personal experiences and in no way, shape or form, are we encouraging anybody to go ahead and do something?

[00:01:30] They feel that you shouldn't do

[00:01:32] Cynic: [00:01:32] exactly. That's the most important message we want to get out.

[00:01:34] Now, if you are under age, Please just take this as something interesting to listen to. Don't go ahead and experiment with anything. Let yourself fully develop before you get into anything like this. And if you are of age, don't jump in either.

[00:01:47] Do your research, know what it is you want understand what it is that you are going through. And if you decide to go on that journey to a safely and it

[00:01:57] Frank: [00:01:57] well said, man, most importantly, timing is everything. So if you don't feel like. There was even an urge to personally dive yourself into it. It's totally okay to just learn about it with that being said, we hope you enjoy the episode

[00:02:11] Cynic: [00:02:11] better.

[00:02:11] Right

[00:02:11] Frank: [00:02:11] here. It is. This is dedicated to you. That's all the brave souls altered the door in the wall door. In the point to find themselves, find themselves side by side.

[00:02:26] Sen: [00:02:26] What's a big cheerleader place to have a party. We really shouldn't be

[00:02:33] Cynic: [00:02:33] doing this.

[00:02:37] Sen: [00:02:37] We haven't

[00:02:41] curiosity,

[00:02:50] Steve. Uh, four times, when did you get it? Oh, you know what I mean? If I was to say what I got it from, you know, it's illegal and everything. It's silly to say that they didn't believe that this was a matter of which you should've kept private. The thing is that I was asked a question by a newspaper and the decision was whether to tell a lie or to, uh,

[00:03:16] Cynic: [00:03:16] tell him the truth, you know?

[00:03:18] Sen: [00:03:18] I decided to tell

[00:03:19] Cynic: [00:03:19] him the truth,

[00:03:21] Sen: [00:03:21] but I really didn't want to say anything, you know, because if I don't have my decision, uh, you know, I had my way, I wouldn't have told anyone know, cause I'm not trying to spread the word about this. The man from the newspaper. Is the man from the mass medium, you know, I'll keep it a personal thing if he does too.

[00:03:40] You know, if he keeps it quiet, he wanted to spread it. So it's his responsibility, you know, spreading it. You don't mind, did you want a public figure? And you said he's in the first place and he must've known and they made the newspaper. Yes. But to say it, you know, is only to tell the truth and I'm telling the truth, you know, I don't want to have you on so angry about.

[00:04:03] What do you think you have now encouraged your fans to take? I don't think it'll make any difference. You know, I don't think my fans are going to take drugs just cause I did. And the thing is that that's not the point anyway, you know, I was asked whether I had or not. And then from then on the whole bit about how far it's going to go and how many people it's going to encourage is up to the newspapers and up to you, you know, on television.

[00:04:27] I mean, he was spreading this now at this moment, this is going into all the homes, you know, And I'd rather it didn't be, you're asking me the question you want me to be honest, I'll be honest. And as a public responsibility, lots. No, it's, you've got the responsibility. You've got the responsibility not to spread this now.

[00:04:49] No, I'm quite prepared to keep it as a very personal thing.

[00:05:13] no

[00:05:13] Frank: [00:05:13] stolen terms.

[00:05:14] Cynic: [00:05:14] Yes, we are.

[00:05:15] Frank: [00:05:15] What I've seen it.

[00:05:16] Cynic: [00:05:16] No Stone Unturned. No stone on tyrant.

[00:05:18] Frank: [00:05:18] It's your boy. Frank. Mr. Chitty, Chitty bang, bang, AKA that boy, AKA Superfly, AKA Smith, his eyes twice as nice. Backdoor. Let's get it right. It was a lot, but what else? Sydney

[00:05:29] Cynic: [00:05:29] and Sinek. Okay. Cindy, AKA that

[00:05:34] Frank: [00:05:34] boy Sinek. Amen. I'm excited for this.

[00:05:36] For this episode. We'll be gone in storage. We got some good stuff coming. It's going to be fun, man. It's going to be fun.

[00:05:43] Cynic: [00:05:43] Yeah. It's a long time coming when we talked about, um, a second season. So this was back in season one. Uh, when we talked about a second season and bringing on guests, uh, this topic and, uh, this guest was.

[00:06:01] The first that I, that popped in my head. And since then, we've been, been trying to arrange it and make this happen. So I'm really excited about it.

[00:06:09] Frank: [00:06:09] We're going to actually play the interview a little later on in the show. Unfortunately, I was not available for the interview, but Sinek I'm so glad that I have somebody like you as a cohost, because you did an outstanding job.

[00:06:20] Your friend send was outstanding. I'm bummed that I couldn't make it, man, but. Hopefully, she'll be a friend of the show and I'll catch her on the rebound, but you guys got a real treat coming for you, man. But before we get into that Sinek, I want to get into a couple of our segments and I want to get into a little quicker because we, we know that this, uh, this episode might be a little longer.

[00:06:39] So I want to be conscious of that. Um, and I want to get right into Florida women, if you're okay with a man, we get rolling. I got a good one here. All right, Florida woman shoots husband in testicles. After he tried to take her air conditioner. Why? Oh man, I love it. I love it. This is fresh off the block. So the Florida woman accused of shooting her husband in the testicles is back in jail.

[00:07:04] After failing to show up to court, the police said Kimberly done 35 lost her. Cool. When her husband and his brother came to her Lake city home last year to pick up an air conditioning unit that she was trying to sell on Facebook. The couple were going through a divorce at the time. According to the report done sat on the unit to prevent the two men from taking.

[00:07:22] When her husband tried to get her off the AC, she tried to fend them off with a stun gun, then fired around at her. Now ex-husband's testicles it handgun.

[00:07:31] Cynic: [00:07:31] Yeah,

[00:07:32] Frank: [00:07:32] her husband's brother there was able to restrain done and take his brother to the hospital. Police had her husband picked up the gun and brought it to the hospital with him.

[00:07:39] Then was the rest of that day and booked into the Columbia County jail without incident. She later told investigators she did not intend to shoot her husband. She only wanted to scare him on Thursday. Dunn was jailed for failing to show it to him. Court and now faces additional charges of consent

[00:07:54] Sen: [00:07:54] of court.

[00:07:56] Frank: [00:07:56] So yeah,

[00:07:58] Cynic: [00:07:58] that was, that hurts even like, it still hurts just hearing it. I can't, you know, I'll

[00:08:05] Frank: [00:08:05] bet it is just getting kicked in the nuts.

[00:08:08] Cynic: [00:08:08] Exactly. That's why I'm thinking of a freaking huh? Uh, high velocity, projectiles blasting was one of them straight up

[00:08:16] Frank: [00:08:16] Tupac, man. Remember Tupac at one testicle. He got shot.

[00:08:20] He got shot in the nuts. I don't know if you remember that.

[00:08:22] Cynic: [00:08:22] Uh, no, I, I didn't.

[00:08:23] Frank: [00:08:23] I forgot, but yeah, it's uh, the tsunami effect of pain, right? Because first, and this is just getting kicked in the nuts. Right. You first to get kicked in the nuts, then you're nuts. Send a message to your brain. About three seconds later.

[00:08:36] It's you know, it's not right away. You're like, Oh, I might get a w Oh no, there it is. And, and that's just getting kicked. So getting shot in the testicle, I can only imagine over fricking air conditioning, I guess. I'm assuming they went half on the AC. She was trying to sell it on Facebook. He wasn't having it.

[00:08:53] He tried to go pick it up. Bang, bang. First, try to hit him with a stun gun. Then a shot him in one of his testicles. So come home. That's Florida woman for you, man. Keeping it spicy, keeping it interesting. You know,

[00:09:04] Cynic: [00:09:04] uh, you guys can handle weapons over there. You really got to get it. You guys have those things like toys, candy, man, and get them out of your hand,

[00:09:12] Frank: [00:09:12] got the rights you got the right to bear arms.

[00:09:15] So we got to shoot each other in the testicles.

[00:09:18] Sen: [00:09:18] It's doing a

[00:09:19] Cynic: [00:09:19] great job with

[00:09:19] Frank: [00:09:19] in all seriousness gun laws. Do need to be revamped here in the States. I don't think we should lose our right to bear arms. Cause I like, I like that amendment right personally, but I do think that that system needs to be revamped because when there's little kids walking into schools with high powered assault rifles, and I'm doing a lot of damage, I mean, right up the road, it's nation nationwide news, right up the road from me about 15 minutes, Marjory, Stoneman, Douglas, the last mass shooting that, that we've had in the nation.

[00:09:49] That was, um, uh, February 14th of all the day. So I know we're making light of it, but we do need to fucking look at that because when, when it's that easy, there's something wrong. And especially when mental health comes into play, but she was strapped. She shot him in the testicles. He's one less down, but I don't know for a, for all I know for all we know, they'll probably get back together sitting.

[00:10:13] Cynic: [00:10:13] Yeah. That's what I would expect par for the course,

[00:10:15] Frank: [00:10:15] the makeup sex will be great.

[00:10:18] Cynic: [00:10:18] Oh, God. All right, so let's move on to some happier topics. Fun fact.

[00:10:38] Here you go. Project. MK ultra is not a conspiracy theory, but in fact, actual history. The CIA developed this mind control program unofficially in 1950 and was sanctioned in 1953. The project lasted until 1973 officially. So 20 years, this project was going, LSD was used extensively on thousands of unsuspecting members of the population, even within the CIA.

[00:11:11] Drinks were often spiked at the agencies gatherings to test the outcomes on intelligence officers. It was not uncommon for invitees to bring their own drinks. As they soon became aware of this practice and quickly learned to mistrust the catering service. So this is real deal. The CIA had this project and they were really dosing people with LSD to test the effects and.

[00:11:39] It goes way beyond. It's a way beyond the example that I just read of them dosing their own. Um, you can find stories of them, uh, luring, uh, people into so-called, uh, parties and, um, dosing them there and watching how they reacted behind a, uh, Like a two-way mirror recording that this was all being done to a completely unsuspecting public lab.

[00:12:12] Frank: [00:12:12] Rats

[00:12:13] Cynic: [00:12:13] like lab rats. Now, MK, ultra. I've heard of that

[00:12:17] Frank: [00:12:17] before. That's really fucked up because if you don't know, what's, here's the thing. If you understand that you're ingesting something and it's going to take you somewhere, I think mentally you're much more prepared for what you're about to encounter.

[00:12:33] Right.

[00:12:33] Cynic: [00:12:33] Yeah, of

[00:12:33] Frank: [00:12:33] course, when you're giving somebody, when you're giving something to somebody, especially something like LSD, which I've never experienced personally, but I know that it's, it's, you know, one of the strongest psychedelics out there with the exception of Ayahuasca when we get into that stuff.

[00:12:45] But, you know, it's, it's up there with, with, with the big boys on the block when you're giving somebody something as serious and as strong as that, when you're giving that to somebody and knowingly, that could create a mental break, man. Because they can't explain what's going on. Yeah. If you know, you're going into URL, I'm going to see some crazy shit everything's going to be all right.

[00:13:04] But if you're just easy peasy, lemon, squeezy drinking, some water and all of a sudden you start seeing fucking elephants. Yeah. So I think that's pretty fucked up, but very interesting.

[00:13:15] Cynic: [00:13:15] It absolutely was. Absolutely once, but that's just one example of the kinds of things they did to an unsuspecting public back in those days.

[00:13:24] And, um, and part of this part of this project, and then we can, we can move on was about, um, my control, like testing, how they could start, you know, implement something like mind control and the LSD was, was what they thought they could use to, to like initiate that and control it. So. There you go. Remember you, you mentioned before in one episode before about the injury and Canada mentoring candidate,

[00:13:53] Frank: [00:13:53] right?

[00:13:54] Yeah. That's right up the block, man. It's right up the block. All right. Well, thanks for freaking me out now. Remember now I'm always going to take my cup of water with me. And when I leave the room,

[00:14:04] Cynic: [00:14:04] bring your, bring your own drinks just in case.

[00:14:07] Frank: [00:14:07] But let's get into it, man. Let's get into this episode's meat and potatoes, you know, the, the spine of this thing.

[00:14:12] And like I said earlier, it's this, uh, this really great interview that we captured with you and your friends send, I'm really excited to, to listen to it. And, um, I'm excited to show it to the people Sinek.

[00:14:23] Cynic: [00:14:23] Absolutely. That's right.

[00:14:25] Frank: [00:14:25] Awesome, man. Let's get into it.

[00:14:26] Cynic: [00:14:26] Hello son.

[00:14:28] Sen: [00:14:28] Hey, what's up Cynic.

[00:14:29] Cynic: [00:14:29] Hi. So let me just tell the folks a little bit about you.

[00:14:35] Sen is a lifelong immigrant and traveler who found solace after discovering the term third culture. She started her journey on this planet in Daqing China. As a result of the political unrest following the 1989 Tiananmen square massacre, her family sought to make a new home in Canada since then her path has led to her living in Calgary, Montreal, Houlihan, and Berlin.

[00:15:03] Whew, ham. Interesting. Sen is a storyteller who believes that when we tell our histories, we find the lost threads that lead us back to ourselves. By retracing, our memories. We draw the through lines of meaning that lead from the past to the present and draw us forward to the future. Sen has her own podcast as well.

[00:15:23] It's called beyond Asian stories of the third culture. Um, and it's her way to begin. Reapproaching her past aided by the bravery and wisdom of her diverse guests who carried their third culture and stories with ownership and pride. Welcome

[00:15:41] Sen: [00:15:41] sin. Thank you so much for that introduction. So it was interesting to have your bio read back to you.

[00:15:49] Cynic: [00:15:49] Yeah. I've not experienced that yet. I don't even have my own bios, but that is pretty cool. Yeah. I was stumbling around your website, which is really cool by the way.

[00:16:00] Sen: [00:16:00] Thank you so much.

[00:16:02] Cynic: [00:16:02] There's a lot of things on that website that I was like, Oh, I didn't even know that's possible to do on

[00:16:06] Sen: [00:16:06] a website. Yeah.

[00:16:07] Yeah. It's a, it's quite a creative experiment. I was really lucky to have a team of creative designers make that website for me because they all believed in the beyond Asian project. So, um, for anyone who wants to check it out beyond asian.com, um, 3d animations, including embedded Spotify links to all of our episodes.

[00:16:27] Cynic: [00:16:27] Absolutely do that. Check her out really cool site. Really cool podcast. So today we're going to be talking about psychedelics and it's an interesting topic, I think for, for many reasons, but also for lots of people also personally, for me. So I came into the world of psychedelics fairly late in the game and actually.

[00:16:55] Came into that world, stepped into that world. Thanks to you. You were a, uh, someone who were able, was able to give me some, you know, information on how, you know, what is this, like, what is it about what to expect? Um, so you've been kind of, um, maybe a little bit of a guru for me in terms of,

[00:17:15] Sen: [00:17:15] wow.

[00:17:17] Cynic: [00:17:17] Yeah. It's I know it may sound weird to hear, but it's, it's, it's the truth.

[00:17:21] Like I've always been interested in it. Well, always, I mean, for many, many years I've been interested in it. Um, but I've only ever read about it, heard about it. I've never, you know, knew anyone who had experiences and, you know, was even in that world. And I much, much less, if I were to make such take such a journey, like what would I expect?

[00:17:40] I never knew anyone who I could have such a conversation with, you know? So it was really cool. We met through a mutual friend and. And when we met, we found out that we have quite a few, you know, we had a few things in common besides interest in psychedelics, you know, the other thing was podcasting. So this podcast and who was really, it was really cool.

[00:17:59] Sen: [00:17:59] Well, I I'm quite honored to have been the person to. Help you along your own journey because so many people have helped me along my journey and, you know, the, uh, the status of grew, it was one that I'm like, ah, come on. You know, everything that I know I learned by reading, by accessing resources that are available to pretty much anybody.

[00:18:20] Um, and by talking to people, you know? So, um, yeah, anyone can learn about this if they want to.

[00:18:26] Cynic: [00:18:26] Yeah. But you know, I mean, I, I understand that the term might feel a little bit. Too much, too heavy, but in a way we're all kind of like teachers for each other. Right. In, in some small way, in some ways, maybe smaller, some ways bigger, but we all know, we all learn different things.

[00:18:43] And even when we don't realize that we're, we're, you know, we're kind of teaching each other, you know, and you were definitely, uh, that for me and, and still are. So, um, I really do appreciate that. I'm glad that we, we, we met that we connected. Well,

[00:19:01] Sen: [00:19:01] and here I am on your show.

[00:19:03] Cynic: [00:19:03] And here you are, we finally got you on the show.

[00:19:06] We were talking about that, uh, just before we started, you know, the plan was to when we would start, when we started talking Frank and I about having, uh, guests on the show, uh, you were the first person I thought of, and you were, you were meant to be the first official guest on the show. Um, Unfortunately, we couldn't get you on first, but

[00:19:29] Sen: [00:19:29] yeah, that was my fault.

[00:19:30] That was my fault life got in the way.

[00:19:33] Cynic: [00:19:33] Yeah. Well, for us as well, but, um, we're really glad to have you on now. So let's, uh, let's dig into this, this complicated topic. Can you tell me, like, how did you get introduced to it or how did you get introduced to it? And why? Like, how did that journey start for you?

[00:19:52] Sen: [00:19:52] You know, I was trying to trace it back to the moment of inception and you know, of course, um, so our society and our culture is so influenced by psychedelics. And I didn't realize that until I experienced psychedelics for the first time. And I also came late into the game. I had my first psychedelic experience, um, when I was 31.

[00:20:13] And, but prior to that, you know, you hear about things, right? You hear about LSD. Acid mushrooms. I WASA, you know, that's just in the culture and, you know, it's in the media, it's in the storytelling, you know, you watch movies and there's, you know, references to, you know, to like, uh, psychedelic patterns or like, you know, certain kinds of music or, you know, um, books and literature that were inspired by psychedelic experiences.

[00:20:37] And so just growing up in, um, in Canada, uh, It's just kind of like always there if you're in tune with it. Um, but, um, the first time that I became really interested in it was I I'm trying to remember if this was a video that I watched in high school or if it was, um, like around that time around like 17 or 18.

[00:20:59] But I remember there was this. This black and white video from the 1950s that was shown to me, I want to say that it was shown to me by a high school teacher, but I feel like I probably wouldn't have happened back then. Um, but the video was of this, um, experiment that they did back then, like around the fifties or the sixties.

[00:21:17] And it was like professor in a lab coat, um, with this housewife, um, like. Prim and proper housewife. And they, at that time, they were conducting research into psychedelics. And that time psychedelics hadn't been listed as schedule one drugs yet by the government. Um, and so there were a lot of creative directions as to like, what are, what are these substances and how can they be used and what are the effects on people?

[00:21:41] So they were conducting like, you know, regular clinical trials. And the backstory of this, of this video was that the scientists had. Um, kind of like made a call out to Housewives, you know, to various people who, um, would have been suitable for testing the effects of LSD. And then they picked, you know, a couple and this video shows, um, this professor in her lab coat with a glass of water, uh, which he had dosed with LSD.

[00:22:08] So this is all consensual,

[00:22:09] Cynic: [00:22:09] right?

[00:22:11] Sen: [00:22:11] That she knew about it. She knew what she was getting into. And like, I, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have known what. What had happened to her because how can anyone describe a psychedelic experience? Um, but just like something, you know, was what peaked your curiosity.

[00:22:26] And so she volunteered for this experiment. She sat, you know, and the thing is like, at the beginning of the video, she's like, she's so rigid and tight and controlled, you know, just like sitting there, like really clenched in, in the chair and the, um, the professor administers the LSD, she drinks the glass of water and, um, and then you.

[00:22:47] Jump forward, like half an hour into the video and she starting to feel the effects and she's starting to like, you know, think like, Hm, I feel a bit, a little bit of like something. I feel a bit of tingling, you know, in the back of my throat or a bit of warmth in my chest. Um, and then you fast forward another hour and she's like more relaxed.

[00:23:04] And she was like, I'm starting to see some waves in the air and then you cut forward to like another 45 minutes. And she's like, there's something so beautiful right there in the corner. I can see it approaching me. It's it's coming from me. Like, there's so many things that are alive in this. She's just like totally immersed in this experience.

[00:23:26] And, um, and then you fast forward another like, you know, 45 minutes and she's like, I'm just like a part of everything. You know, there's energy emanating from everything. And she looks at the professor she's like, but not, you. But everything else is emanating this energy and it's coming from me and it's so beautiful.

[00:23:43] And, um, and you know, you just like watch this, this video and you're, you know, I just found myself so transfixed by this, um, this woman who was having like such a. A beautiful experience. Um, and just how much she opened up and loosened into, uh, into herself as she was experiencing this substance, just seated in the same chair.

[00:24:07] Like she didn't move, you know, she'd just seen him in the center and you've got like the professor taking notes the whole time and she's just like having the best time. And I watched that video and I was like, I want to have that experience. That sounds so interesting. Wow. Um, and so that was like when I was like 18 or so, and that was just like, it just marked, I, you know, I marked that experience in my memory and I never actually had a chance to, to try the substance until like, you know, 13 years later.

[00:24:35] Cynic: [00:24:35] But. And 13 years later, that was, uh, that would have been what LSD, what you tried.

[00:24:40] Sen: [00:24:40] Yeah, so, so, so my first year, my first experience with, uh, was with LSD, um, which is the one that I wanted to experience in the first place. But I was curious about a lot of things, actually. No, no. Let me know. My first experience was actually with mushrooms.

[00:24:52] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about that. Um, and,

[00:24:57] Cynic: [00:24:57] uh,

[00:24:58] Sen: [00:24:58] got good old facial mushrooms. Yeah. And that was, that was also like, uh, a really, um, beautiful and, and very, um, guided and contained and safe experience that I had with a group of friends, um, in Montreal. Uh, so just like a really positive, um, Like, you know, wholesome experience.

[00:25:18] Um, very interesting. So,

[00:25:20] Cynic: [00:25:20] okay. So yeah, that's so cool that there are a lot of things that you, you you've mentioned there that I was just like, Oh, I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. Like, one of the things was you, when you were talking about her, um, this, this woman who was administered LSD by, by the scientist or the researcher.

[00:25:39] Yeah. Um, and how you described how she was sitting there and kind of. Started to have all these slowly have these experiences. And I realized that the experiences that she had, and I think we, we both know, we both know this, that the experience you have has so much to do with where you are mentally and what your environment is like, right at that particular, wherever you happen to be.

[00:26:07] And I was just wondering or thinking it must have been. She must've been well-prepared. Yeah. In terms of, not in the sense of what to expect, but maybe, um, in the sense of making sure she was sort of in a good place. Yeah. Not stressed or not angry or whatever, and the environment, I assume maybe you can tell me about the video, but would have been also, probably in a certain kind of way, because I can tell you.

[00:26:33] So my first experience was obviously now, also in my, in my. My God, I was going to say thirties, I'm already 40. What am I talking about in my, in my, uh, early forties? And, um, so before that, I hadn't tried anything other than, uh, you know, the standard, uh, weed marijuana, which is not a psychedelic. Um, and my experiences were as you know, they varied and not all of them were, let's say of the, of the positive variety.

[00:27:06] Yeah. And I spend a lot of time thinking about that and really trying to understand if you know, this is coming from the, it came from the environment I was in or the Headspace that I was in. And, um, I think, yeah, that must've played a role. And so when you describe her experience, and then when you describe your experience and their, you know, pretty positive experiences, um, it always brings me back to that know because.

[00:27:33] Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say, it's not always. It's super nice positive experience as I know firsthand, but yeah. Yeah. Maybe you can say something about that in terms of the environment and your head space, how much that affects it. Yeah,

[00:27:47] Sen: [00:27:47] absolutely. I think that's a really good point that you make.

[00:27:50] Um, I wish I knew what the conditions of that experiment were. I can imagine that. Being a, a clinical trial that they did prepare the participants ahead of hand. They screened them to make sure that they were, um, mentally well and that they had good social supports that they knew what they were getting themselves into.

[00:28:06] Um, so definitely, you know, um, uh, adequate preparation is important. So in the psychedelic world, we talk about set and setting as being the two tenants of what makes for a good experience and set, refers to mindset. And setting refers to your actual physical setting or your social setting. So it's like, you know, it's like anything, it doesn't have to be only applied to a psychedelic experience.

[00:28:33] It's like set and setting are applied to any kind of experience. You know, if you have, if you're going to throw a party, you want to make sure that you're in the right frame of mind. You want to make sure that the space is welcoming. If you're gonna go on a camping trip, you want to make sure that, you know, you're feeling healthy about it and that with the right people, um, that you're going to a place where you're going to feel.

[00:28:53] Uh, comfortable and safe. Right. Um, so hat psychedelics do. One of the many things is that they act as a general amplifier of your internal state, which means that any emotions that you're experiencing, whether they're positive or challenging, they typically get amplified. You know, you just like, you get more aware of them and you notice them more in others.

[00:29:17] And, you know, you can really like feed off of other people's emotions as well. Um, so. You know, the, the state that you enter and, uh, the experience with it and kind of like the expectations and the approach that you take with it can certainly set you, um, at a certain, let's say angle to the experience. Um, and the same thing goes with the physical setting is that, you know, you want to make sure that you have a place

[00:29:42] Frank: [00:29:42] that's comfortable

[00:29:44] Sen: [00:29:44] and safe, and that you'll be undisturbed, at least for part of the experience

[00:29:49] Frank: [00:29:49] she's talking about set and setting.

[00:29:52] Right mindset, the mindset that you're in when you consume it and the setting, your environment. And I love that, man, because the reason I just wanted to take a quick second to touch up on that is because, um, I'm somebody personally. And I think we all are to a certain extent, but some, some of us more than others, I'm very aware of the energy that I keep around me because the energy that I keep around me, ultimately, it's, it's either going to be something that it's going to take.

[00:30:20] If it's bad energy, or if it's energy, that's not conducive to my flow. It's going to take too much of my energy to fight that. So it doesn't disrupt me. Right. So it's much more strenuous versus having somebody who's aligned with me. And it's effortless, obviously, if you have the option. Well, not obviously, but for me, if I have the option, I'd rather have people around me where I don't have to fight their energy, where we can just be kind of kumbaya.

[00:30:44] But with, with con you know, consuming the. The psychedelics, it amplifies everything. It, everything is, you know, it's kind of like a veil is lifted in a sense, you know, and you know, you don't want to put yourself in a situation and it's known, you know, don't, don't go on trips with people that you have grudges with because those things are gonna come out.

[00:31:06] You're not going to have the ability to suppress it like you do on kind of your everyday life, um, where you, you know, if you, you're not too fond of somebody, you can just kind of bite your tongue. Right. Just to be a responsible adult, choosing your battles. When, when you're on, on that journey, there is no bullshit, bullshit meter doesn't exist.

[00:31:24] It's reality. And I, that speaks to me just because again, I'm a huge believer in energy, and I'm a huge believer in being conscious and mindful of the energy that you keep, the energy that you keep around you. Um, and that's sometimes cool stuff to see how that connects.

[00:31:39] Cynic: [00:31:39] Yeah. So another interesting part about that is even if you're alone, Let's say,

[00:31:46] Frank: [00:31:46] um,

[00:31:48] Cynic: [00:31:48] apparently the setting it in terms of where you physically are.

[00:31:52] So like the difference between being somewhere where you're just feel comfortable, like, let's say hopefully at home or, you know, maybe you're alone, but you're in a, an unfamiliar environment apparently that can also impact or have some kind of an impact on how you experienced that particular journey.

[00:32:11] So it's, it's, uh, Have a few things to think about. Yeah. Like where you are mentally, where you are physically, who you surrounded by all these things. Um, but it makes sense, right? If it's an amplifier than anything that will give you some emotion, it's going to amplify that emotion.

[00:32:28] Frank: [00:32:28] Yeah. And it's, it's very unique to see how things should be aligned.

[00:32:34] If you want to see the most out of this journey in a positive light, right? Sometimes we can't control the journey that we go on. Um, but these, you know, if these things, if these things are in line and this kind of, you know, you should be, you should be all right. But as you said, if your environment is the right, if your mentality isn't right, or maybe if just it isn't it, isn't your time.

[00:32:56] The psychedelic gives you what you need. Hmm. No, you're not always going to have these crazy experiences. But when it does come, you know, more than likely those, those things are aligned. So I just wanted to touch on them and I thought that was pretty cool.

[00:33:11] Cynic: [00:33:11] Yeah, it is. And the other thing is I just thought about something I'll make it quick.

[00:33:15] I just realized that if you are on a psychedelic trip and all of these things are factors in terms of how you will feel, how much energy must we be expanding on our day to day. In trying to deal with things like regarding our environment, regarding the people we're with regarding our own emotions. Like, cause when you're on the trip, like those things just come out, right?

[00:33:44] Yeah. The filter is gone, but how much energy are we expanding in our day to day to filter those things so we can function. That's crazy.

[00:33:53] Frank: [00:33:53] That's, that's a great way of putting it, man.

[00:33:56] Cynic: [00:33:56] That's gotta be really exhausting on, on the

[00:33:59] Frank: [00:33:59] person. The more and more that happens that could lead to fucking depression that could lead to eating disorders.

[00:34:05] I could eat the other shit, you know, because physical spiritually, spiritually, man, we're not, we're not there, man. I love him, man. I let's let's get going again. Hit that playbook. Send it.

[00:34:16] Sen: [00:34:16] Because, um, you know, it's, it can sometimes be, um, be a bit turbulent depending on what's happening during the day. And, you know, like with anything, like if you go to a big party, you might want to take some alone time and just chill on your own for a little bit to settle into yourself.

[00:34:31] Um, so with those two things, um, taking care of, to the best of your ability, that kind of like sets the stage for the kind of experience that you're going to have. Um, that's not to say that if you're, you know, going through some challenging times in your life, that it's not a good idea to experience psychedelics, it's more like, you know, just be aware of what your internal state is.

[00:34:53] Um, like awareness is so important in this whole process, as it is with everything, right. It's just like, no, Know What you're going through, like be able to identify, um, to the best of your ability, like what state you're in. Before you engage in something that will alter your consciousness.

[00:35:10] Cynic: [00:35:10] Yeah. You hit it right on the head.

[00:35:13] It's regardless of what you are, um, you know, on, on a psychedelic or not, or it really doesn't matter. Awareness is it's such an important part of just everyday life. And I've been thinking about it more and more as I've been practicing with meditation and, um, trying to be more. Yeah aware, but, um, what does, what is the term I'm thinking of?

[00:35:39] Just, you know, present in the now basically, you know, and, um, yeah, for me it was, um, it was pretty interesting. Like, uh, we talked about this before, you know, I had certain, I tried not to go in with expectations, but I still had some expectations obviously. And, um, and that, and that first time it was, uh, I remember it was, I barely felt, I barely felt anything.

[00:36:07] It was like, I could tell there was something there, but it was, it wasn't like this life-changing experience. And I think that's what I was going in expecting. Yeah. And remember when you and I talked then, and I was, you know, about what my dosage was and you know, and I remember the next time I did it. I had up the dosage and then it hit me like a freight train, but everything time, it was like, um, my, my environment was, was the same, at least those first two times.

[00:36:35] And, and my mindset was, I don't, I don't know as much as I, as we're talking now about having a good mindset and being aware. I don't think I was there. And just on a personal note, I mean, that's what actually drove me to even experiment with this. It's it's to try and break through some, what I feel is like some imaginary wall that I have that lets me, that prevents me from like connecting it's, like seeing or not even seeing, but knowing there's something just beyond and I'm, and, and I'm hoping that.

[00:37:10] Well, I was hoping that something like an experience with a psychedelic would help me break through that, that glass break through that wall. And, um, yeah, I still feel even now that it's something that, um, Hey, I've just peaked, peaked through meaning, you know, I may have just gotten a peek through, but I still don't feel like I've had that experience.

[00:37:31] So I hear about other people's experience with a bit of envy, uh, but I'm still keeping the, uh, The faith. Yeah. That, um, when the time is right, uh, I'll have the right experience.

[00:37:44] Sen: [00:37:44] Yeah. I, I can relate to this feeling of expectation because even after having had several. Psychedelic experiences. I still sometimes have this, you know, this feeling like, Oh, it's going to be, it's going to be the thing that, you know, I'm going to get a revelation.

[00:38:02] I'm going to be able to access a part of myself and then I'm going to deal with it and then we're going to be done and then it's going to be over. And then I'll be like a new person I'll have fixed my problem, you know? And, um, and I noticed that whenever I have the tendency to do that is when I have like a fixed idea of how I want the thing to go.

[00:38:21] You know, it's like you, um, it's like you over plan things. Um, and you try to like exert some control over things. You're like, this is how the problem is going to be solved. You know, I'm going to bring this magic tool inside, wave it, have an interesting experience. And then it'll be, it's like very linear kind of thinking, right?

[00:38:39] It's like problem solution, you know, cause effect and, um, Nothing really works like that. Like we're not, we're not mechanical pieces to be fixed by a special tool. Uh, and that's like sometimes like a really frustrating thing too, to realize, because you know, like so many people do have these, um, these peak experiences, like, you know, peak as in like high apex apex experiences.

[00:39:06] Um, During which time they, you know, recognize like really profound insights about themselves or, um, you know, they make connections that otherwise they weren't able to make. And, but the thing is that those things typically happen when you're not like I'm going to have peak experience. You know, even when, you know, you decide you're going to, let's say take a higher dosage of things that higher dosage does not.

[00:39:31] Equal peak experience. Um, it doesn't often have that kind of like, one-to-one kind of effect. It's like so many things, you know, come to light. It's like, if you're going to go on a long journey, um, sometimes you embark on that journey with the goal of like, you know, discovering yourself. And you're like, I'm going to discover myself in my head by doing this and doing this and doing this.

[00:39:54] And by the end of all of those things, I've checked the boxes and I've discovered myself. And that's your plan going in? But that journey is going to do all sorts of things that were not planned and that's where the real learning happens. Yeah. Um, and I think that's the thing that, that, to like, remember when we're going through any kind of experience, not just the psychedelic experiences, that our expectations are just our expectations, you know, they're just like the idea that we have of what could happen.

[00:40:24] Cynic: [00:40:24] Yeah. You know, I, I w I'd like to talk about the learning part, you know, that you just mentioned, you know, we've been talking or at least the only experience I've had has been with, um, with mushrooms. I should just, uh, just to clarify that, um, I know you've had experiences with other psychedelics, you know, I'm curious to know, like what, first of all, what, what are those other psychedelics that you've, um, um, tried and.

[00:40:51] What would you say was the difference in terms of learning or is there no difference? Like, I'm just curious because again, um, I'm listening to my, my guru here.

[00:41:05] Sen: [00:41:05] Oh my goodness. Um, well the thing is, you know, I can only say what my experiences have been and, you know, anyone who takes whatever they want to take is like, that's that, you know, that's, uh, that's a disclaimer, like no, no guru status at all. Yep. Yep. Um, so. Uh, the, the classic psychedelics that I've, uh, experienced are mushrooms, LSD, and, uh, to an extent Ayahuasca, um, which, which contains DMT and.

[00:41:33] Um, you can experience, uh, like seeing these patterns, you know, that's what we, that's what we think about when we think about the sixties, like all the, all the swirls and everything. Like, that's what you see. You know, when I saw that for the first time, I was like, Oh, that's why they're all these swirly things in all the movies in the sixties.

[00:41:51] That's where it comes from. Wow, I get it now. And then you understand that and then you see it everywhere in art and music. Yeah. You're like, that's what they're talking about. Okay, cool. Um, and you know, you look at like paintings and stuff and you see like the, the shifting colors and how like the foreground and the background, like can kind of.

[00:42:11] In an outer focus and, um, and things take on like a breathing quality. So, um, stationary objects will sometimes feel like they're like expanding and contracting as if, you know, as if they're re respirating. Um, and the same thing with, uh, with plants in particular is like, I look at plants and they often feel like they're just like, the leaves are breathing.

[00:42:35] You know, I can like feel that they're just like, kind of, you know,

[00:42:38] Frank: [00:42:38] stop it right there. Stop it right there.

[00:42:41] Cynic: [00:42:41] I was thinking of you when she said that. I remember when you gave me that exact description.

[00:42:47] Frank: [00:42:47] I saw the plant taking in the oxygen, filtering the carbon dioxide and it releasing it back into the universe.

[00:42:54] Man. I saw that. It's so crazy to hear somebody else describe it in that same, you know, it's like, there's this plane, man, there's this plane that you get to and eventually you will get there Sinek. Right. And when you get there, it's like, yeah, you saw that blue house. You saw the yellow one on the corner, right?

[00:43:10] You know, cause like, yeah, I saw the yellow house too. So dope sample to hear, to hear you describe it like that. Cause that euphoric, that euphoric feeling is what I felt, man. It was, it was a beautiful thing.

[00:43:22] Cynic: [00:43:22] Yeah. When she said it, I was like, wow. Yeah. Uh, Frank would, would, would definitely be jumping in right now.

[00:43:29] Cause I remember when you described that, I almost mentioned it to her, but I didn't want to interrupt him. So

[00:43:35] Frank: [00:43:35] not good stuff, man. Good stuff. I hit it.

[00:43:38] Sen: [00:43:38] Um, their own beat and that's, it's just so beautiful to watch and especially like getting out into nature and like being with the trees and being with the sky and the clouds and watching the birds overhead, um, it just feels like everything is alive with its own energy.

[00:43:54] Um, and, and it's all very nonverbal and it's like when the wind passes through the leaves of the trees, it's it really feels like the trees are communicating in a way, um, you know, through just the movements of the leaves. So it's, uh, it's like, that part is a theorial it's so it's so beautiful. And that's the part

[00:44:13] Cynic: [00:44:13] that I want so much to experience.

[00:44:15] And that's why it's just out of my grasp. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[00:44:19] Sen: [00:44:19] I get it. I get it.

[00:44:20] Cynic: [00:44:20] I think maybe, uh, A Cynic can't experience these things because of the fact that they're Cynical.

[00:44:31] Frank: [00:44:31] Nah, man, you're gonna, you're gonna get it, man. Just gotta be open, dude. You gotta be open to it. And I'm not saying that you're

[00:44:36] Cynic: [00:44:36] not no, but that's exactly why I'm saying it.

[00:44:39] You know, when you, when your default setting is Cynical, it might, you might be just blocking yourself from, you know, having. What some kind of an experience like that?

[00:44:50] Frank: [00:44:50] Well, when I tell you, you have to be open to let go of my friend. Maybe that's what the shoe is trying to teach you, right? From the very beginning, you're still too guarded.

[00:45:00] Let's go.

[00:45:01] Cynic: [00:45:01] Yeah,

[00:45:02] Frank: [00:45:02] let's go. Let's go. I love it, baby.

[00:45:06] Sen: [00:45:06] Uh, because it's, you know, it's enchanting, you know, you can just like, just look at things for hours. So those are the similarities between, um, mushrooms and LSD is, is that they both have these visual effects even, but you know, now that I've done both of these substances, um, enough, I can tell the differences between them.

[00:45:22] Um, so just visually like mushrooms, they tend to be a lot more. Colorful, like kind of like primary colors. It feels like everything is crayons, you know? So like those kind of like sharp, bright colors, there's a very like playful feeling that things almost feel like they're cartoony in the way that, um, the colors interact with each other.

[00:45:43] Whereas with LSD, um, it feels a lot more subtle. So, um, it feels like things are a lot more like crystalline sometimes. And the edges of things are sometimes a bit crispy. I don't know if this is going to make any sense to anyone, but, you know, that's, that's the way that I would describe it. So it's just like with the visual effects.

[00:46:01] Um, but with the actual internal effects, which is what I think is much more interesting, like after a while the visual effects are actually not that interesting anymore because it's kind of like the same thing every time, you know, Um, so I know that, you know, to someone who hasn't yet had that truly experienced, like how could that not be interesting anymore, but after a while you're like, cool, I get it.

[00:46:20] Stuff moves and there's colors and you know, and the trees are breathing, you know, it's beautiful. Um, and there's actually another much deeper layer of experience that's happening within you. Um, which has to do with perception of yourself and perception of the world around you in the sense that like, You start to notice patterns and things that you normally don't notice.

[00:46:45] So, you know, patterns in people's behavior, or you start to think about like, you look at the way that the world works and you just noticed different things. Like the way that, you know, traffic moves and all of a sudden there's like an understanding of the, like the systems that govern. Those patterns, um, you know, or you start to like make connections between like, Oh, I had this experience, you know, when I was a child and that's why I've been doing, you know, this kind of thing over and over and over again into my adult life.

[00:47:18] Um, so it's just like a different level of awareness of yourself. It's like you perceive yourself, um, from another perspective, Hmm. And, um, and that's where I think the real learnings are. Right. And when, when you can make connections that you normally can't make.

[00:47:33] Cynic: [00:47:33] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, you know, whatever, what you, what I was thinking about when you were describing that is I wonder if this could have been, um, or had something to do with our, meaning our meaning humanity's, um, uh, jump.

[00:47:51] Cognitively. So like when, when we made this jump, whenever it happened from being sort of a caveman kind of, you know, uh, you know, living in that kind of a way and very sort of limited, uh, way of thinking and just very, um, I can't, I can't think of any words today, but

[00:48:09] Sen: [00:48:09] like, uh, when, when they were able to evolve into, you know, higher States of awareness.

[00:48:15] Cynic: [00:48:15] Yeah. So like w when we, cause we made some sort of. Jump, uh, in terms of our consciousness in terms of our awareness and sure. I mean, we, we could, you could think that it, it had just happened slowly over time and I'm sure it did take a lot of time, but I wonder if we had any major real jumps in our, in our consciousness, in, in, in just how we saw things from people, maybe having these kinds of experiences.

[00:48:43] You know, where you've taken, they've taken some sort of psychedelic mushroom or whatever, and their mind is just now open. Like you mentioned seeing patterns and in not just out in the outside world, but in people, you know, and if we just started to make connections and understand things differently, if that was like, uh, an impetus that pushed us into some other, some next level, you know, in our evolution

[00:49:11] Frank: [00:49:11] pause right there, sitting.

[00:49:13] Sen: [00:49:13] Yeah,

[00:49:13] Frank: [00:49:13] we talked about it briefly when we had Monteon, which we had them on. I think he was our first guest of the, of the season. Amen. Listen, one thing we're doing is season two's, but keeping our promises people, right? You want to guest, you got guests. But I want to talk about Terence McKenna and he believed that psilocybin mushrooms were the evolutionary catalyst from which language, projective imagination, the arts, religion, philosophy science, and all of the human culture sprang McKenna's hypothesis concerning the influence of psilocybin mushrooms on human evolution is known as the stoned ape theory.

[00:49:47] And that's what you're referring to. Where could it be possible? That's what kind of gave us that jump. From, Ooh, I

[00:49:55] Cynic: [00:49:55] w exactly

[00:49:57] Frank: [00:49:57] to being able to communicate and me in the office species that we are

[00:50:01] Cynic: [00:50:01] that's exactly it. Yeah. And send is going to actually talk about that ex that very thing right now. And, uh, I joked about.

[00:50:12] Uh, Terrence having beaten me to the theory, but I'm sure I must have heard the theory somewhere, um, you know, from him, but the thing is when she was talking about it, uh, I was definitely not thinking about Terence McKenna or even the name of the theory, but the way she described these things, uh, that's just what immediately popped in my head.

[00:50:33] It's like, if, you know, if this is. How this works. If this is the kind of experience you have, and I could totally get a, you can take a primitive. Species or version of the human species and crank should give them exactly give them some of this. And all of a sudden they're understanding things in a different way.

[00:50:53] And that could be a catalyst, but yeah, that's exactly what it's called and she's going to get into

[00:50:58] Frank: [00:50:58] that. Awesome man. All right. I'll shut up. Play that shit.

[00:51:00] Sen: [00:51:00] Well, we can only speculate. Uh, uh, on this right now, um, there are some interesting hypotheses floating around out there. So, uh, there is one theory called the stoned ape hypothesis, which was put forth by Terence McKenna, who is, you know, one of the big names in psychedelics.

[00:51:20] Um, you know, he

[00:51:21] Frank: [00:51:21] should it been like, shut up. We're going to talk about that right now.

[00:51:26] Sen: [00:51:26] I feel the study for mushrooms. Yeah. And his hypothesis was essentially that it was like, we were, we were apes. We were, you know, or, or just like, you know, not yet as, uh, as aware as we are now and foraging for food, Hunter gathering, hindering gathering, and, and, you know, you're going to hunt some, or gather some mushrooms at some point.

[00:51:48] And people were just like testing stuff out by eating it. Right. So, um, at some point. Most likely people encountered psychedelic mushrooms in the forest, ate them and you know, the stone age hypothesis, the hypothesis it's not proven or anything. I don't know. We

[00:52:02] Cynic: [00:52:02] could have

[00:52:02] Sen: [00:52:02] approval. Yeah. You know, ingesting the psychedelic substances allowed us to, uh, allow the apes to, um, to perceive differently and develop higher brain functions.

[00:52:14] Um, and wasn't, uh, he calls it an evolutionary catalyst. Um, so that is, that's a hypothesis. Um, it's out there for people to read and to just kind of like, you know, chew on as an idea, um, Not sure if that's anything that we could ever, you know, get into academically, scientifically.

[00:52:33] Cynic: [00:52:33] Wow. So that means Terence McKenna beat me to theory.

[00:52:39] like, I I'm, I'm looking at you and I'm wondering you, you, you. You look a bit skeptical. Like you're not really

[00:52:46] Sen: [00:52:46] getting into that. I mean, you know, you know, I'm, I'm, my background is in the sciences, so my baseline is skepticism. Okay. So I'm skeptical, I'm skeptical about everything, you know, so that's, that's, that's just where I come from.

[00:52:58] Um, I think it's a, it's a, it's a fun idea. Um, but, um, but there's no scientific basis for it. We can't prove it. Um, it's iPod. This is for a reason, right? Yeah. Um, so, so it's a cool idea. It could be, it could have some merit might not. Um, I am not an evolutionary biologist, so I am not qualified to make any theories about, uh, how we developed higher consciousness.

[00:53:25] Yeah. I mean, like I it's cool. It's a, it's a cool idea. That's all I can say.


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[00:55:30] Cynic: [00:55:30] So what, what was the, um, I'll ask her, like, are you asked, has been more and more in, in the public discourse lately and more and more people know about it. There's like tourism now for it. Like,

[00:55:41] Sen: [00:55:41] what was that like? So Ayahuasca is, uh, you know, it's one of these psychedelic substances that is indigenous to, um, to tribes in South America, you know, in Columbia and Peru, um, And it's something that has, um, kind of being commodified by Western society, as you know, and that's why it's reached to mainstream.

[00:56:05] And that's why there's now iOS Couture's. And, um, I was, uh, being impor, uh, exported to pretty much every corner of the world. Um, you can find an Ayahuasca ceremony, like, you know, on any street corner in any weekend, like in most major cities and, um, I think that like before, you know, I talk about the experience of Ayahuasca.

[00:56:24] I think of that. It's important to just mention how important it is to, um, to be aware of just the ethics around specifically. I want to go just because so much of it is linked in with cultural appropriation, um, in a way that mushrooms and LSD are not. Um, because those things are like, my mushrooms are easily grown on your own LSD synthesized in a laboratory.

[00:56:49] But I Wasco comes through from a tradition of like many, many, many years of, um, of training and, and it's just something that like, I'm really aware of when I. Look at other people doing I Wasco ceremonies and like, you know, do you know who the sham is? Um, is it actually, who is someone who is qualified to be a shaman?

[00:57:06] You know, where's the money going? Um, what is the ceremony like? Um, because. In contrast to some of these other, uh, psychedelic substances, um, to have an iOS experience, you need to have it be facilitated by a shaman. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's less common to do on your own. It's more like, you know, you go into a ceremony and there's a group of people, and then you have someone who's guiding the experience.

[00:57:30] Um,

[00:57:30] Cynic: [00:57:30] so you're saying that if you, if you are going to try that, that you should be aware that it's. It's really a ceremonial thing that should be respected in terms of the traditions should be respected.

[00:57:41] Sen: [00:57:41] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Just like, you know, do, do your research, um, find out who is holding the ceremony, you know, find out what their connections are to the, uh, to the indigenous communities, um, where the iowaska comes from and, um, you know, and ask questions about how the money is, uh, is feeding back into the community because it's, it's just one of those things where yeah.

[00:58:07] It's already depleting the communities there. Um, you know, the Ayahuasca vines are being more and more, um, harvested from, uh, from the rainforest and, um, and just like, you know, there's more demand for it. So there's going to be more, uh, less supply for it. And, um, you know, and with everything, sustainability is key and we have to have that in mind and it's also okay.

[00:58:29] What's happening to the local economies, um, with people coming through and doing their, you know, their Ayahuasca tourism, like, is it actually helping the communities or is it diffusing their traditions with, um, you know, like with like tourism money? Um, so all of that, so yeah, that's the preface is like, do your research, make sure, you know, what's going on in the background there, because there are some shady Ayahuasca practices, uh, with people who, um, have not.

[00:58:56] Come from the community who have taken the Ayahuasca and, um, and sold it, you know, under their own trademark, but it's not under anybody's tradition. It's not, um, guided by an indigenous indigenous shaman. And sometimes like they do all sorts of like really, really unethical things. Like, you know, a water, the Ayahuasca down, or, um, not treat the participants with as much care and guidance as they need to.

[00:59:18] And it's just kind of like a money-making machine, you know, like anything. Yeah. So. Yeah. Especially to be careful that's yeah, yeah, yeah. Generally, generally. Um, so there that's my, that's my preface. Hope I did it justice. I think it's really important to talk about these things. Um, and, and as for the experience of Ayahuasca itself, um, my.

[00:59:41] Take on it is that I've done it once I did a three days ceremony, it was, um, it was in, uh, in the, uh, surrounding area, outside of Berlin. And it was guided by a shaman from Columbia. Um, and yeah. The experience was like Ayahuasca is not recreational. Um, it is medicine, big M medicine. Um, it's, uh, like at least that's, that's what it was for me.

[01:00:10] And I think that's the way that it's intended. Um, whereas some of the other substances can be used as like very casually, you know, without, without too much like preparation, um, with the Ayahuasca is like, you know, I'm going here for, uh, a healing ceremony and, um, There is a preparation process. Uh, so, uh, typically they ask you to observe a data, which means that you abstain from alcohol, caffeine, pork, uh, marijuana, sugar, certain kinds of spices for, um, a couple of days to two weeks prior to, uh, prior to the ceremony.

[01:00:47] Um, because, because some of the substances in, um, all of those food items can. Interfere with, um, with this, with the, the DMT and the, uh, one of the other substances. I can't read what it's called right now. I'm looking through it. Um, and, uh, and that can affect the experience. And that's also, you know, the, the tradition that is observed in the, in the, in the indigenous tribes.

[01:01:12] Um, so that's one thing, um, and, you know, leading up to the ceremony, it's like, you know, you do need to think about like what your intention is and, um, You know, and, and just kind of be, be ready for anything to happen. Uh, what actually happened for me, um, was just like, it was, it was one of the most difficult things I had ever done because there is a lot of.

[01:01:39] Physical nausea, uh, as a result of the Ayahuasca and that's intended. Um, and essentially what you do is you, uh, you take the Ayahuasca, so like a little cup of it, you swallow it, it doesn't taste that, that great. Um, it's like, you know, it's, it's, uh, It's a brood concoction of two vines from the Amazonian rainforest.

[01:02:02] And, um, they, they brew it for multiple days until it's quite thick and sticky and bitter. So, you know, you take that and then you retreat back to your space and allow the medicine to start working. And typically it starts working in like half an hour to an hour. And the way that you know, that it starts working is that you start to feel really nauseous and, um, that nausea will culminate in.

[01:02:25] And gagging and you start to wretch, um, and then you start to vomit and, um, you know, and before long you have like an entire room of people who are like retching and vomiting and, um, that's the process like that's what is intended to happen? Like it's called . So the, the, the purge. So you're getting rid of all the physical stuff from the inside.

[01:02:46] Um, that's not it anymore.

[01:02:50] Frank: [01:02:50] I don't, I don't think that's coincidence, man. The fact that. The fact that you start puking. I think that's, um, you know, that's you releasing some shit or that's a price you gotta pay to, to go for that ride. But I feel like it's deeper than just you being like your stomach hurting.

[01:03:08] I feel like it exemplifies something in a sense.

[01:03:11] Cynic: [01:03:11] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. There's definitely some kind of symbolism there. I mean, you're, you're obviously physically. You know, vomiting, but she's going to describe now how you feel like you're vomiting, emotional stuff too, which is, and I think that's what you're getting at.

[01:03:33] Frank: [01:03:33] My next thought is, man, that circle must smell like shit. If everybody's puking, man, I'm one of those people. I can't smell it. I can't smell it.

[01:03:43] Cynic: [01:03:43] My guess. Is that when you're in that state, you just like worrying about your home.

[01:03:50] Frank: [01:03:50] I hope so play

[01:03:51] Sen: [01:03:51] that shit. And then once you've gotten rid of all the physical stuff after like, you know, a few hours of physical vomiting, um, then you start to.

[01:03:59] Purge energetically, which means that you're still like retching. Nothing is coming out anymore because you've puked it all out. Um, but there's like other stuff coming out and like, it sounds, it sounds like difficult to comprehend, like what is energetic vomiting, but it's just basically a you're you're rushing in and just all of your shit is coming out from the inside, all your psychological shit.

[01:04:18] And, um, you know, that process is, is really. Uncomfortable. Um, and, and that's why, you know, I call it like big M medicine. Cause it's not fun to be on your knees, vomiting into a Tupperware for like six hours. Um, and, and yet it's so. Good. It's so good for me. Um, that's what I learned is like, as long as I went along, I was like, this is extremely difficult.

[01:04:47] At one point I was lying on the floor, like completely blunt, believing that I was going to die.

[01:04:53] Cynic: [01:04:53] So I'm just stopping it there because it's another point where you were telling me, I'm not sure if we, this was on the air of, we were talking about this off the air, but you were telling me about, um, What was it on the air?

[01:05:06] When you were saying that you, you, you heard from people that they felt like your soul left their body.

[01:05:12] Frank: [01:05:12] Yeah. Uh, I don't know if it was on or off, but yeah, like, yeah. That's what I tell you that I was scared to try it in a sense. And what happens is that the, the DMT that's released in the brain throughout that process is the same hormone that's released when you're born initially.

[01:05:28] And when you pass away,

[01:05:31] Cynic: [01:05:31] I've heard that.

[01:05:32] Frank: [01:05:32] So. Those parallels and the fact that you're tapping into shit that used to only supposed to feel twice in your lifetime, you know, like all those things, we all got to pay the Piper, but yeah, that's what I was afraid to.

[01:05:49] Sen: [01:05:49] Um, that like I was, I was screaming for him help.

[01:05:53] Um, there were helpers running around, like, you know, giving people a water and, you know, and, and paper to wipe their faces with. And I remember I was just like lying on the floor, screaming for someone to get me toilet paper, because that was what I felt like I needed most desperately in that moment. Just to like someone didn't give me a water toilet paper so I could wipe the bile off my face so I could keep vomiting.

[01:06:16] Cynic: [01:06:16] Oh my God.

[01:06:17] Sen: [01:06:17] Um, and you know, and I, and I did that for, for three nights in a row. Um, and, uh, and every, every day something new came up. Um,

[01:06:27] Cynic: [01:06:27] and, uh,

[01:06:29] Sen: [01:06:29] and it was, it was all very interesting. Um, I remember that, um, On the second day I was purging and purging and purging. And at one point I paused the purging and I saw, um, all of the emotions that I had stuffed down for years and years that normally don't let out, um, go on like a little parade in front of me.

[01:06:51] And so, um, First, there was like a box of sadness and I like the box of sadness and spraying open. All the sadness came out and I just sat there, just crying weeping, um, you know, in a room of other people who are just doing whatever, whatever it is that they're doing, you know, everyone's going through their own process.

[01:07:09] Um, and I did that for like a good half an hour, and then that was over. And then I was like, Anger. Oh, the anger box is opening now. Now I'm just going to be really angry at everything and just like, like storm around and just like, you know, freak out and scream and like, you know, just like squat on the floor and put my hand in my heads and just like scream.

[01:07:29] Um, and then I did that and that was done, you know, and then there was like another box of fear, you know, not opened. And I, you know, and then I went and I like lay in the corner by myself on top of all the backpacks and, and I was just. Like I was just cowering and fear. And everyone who passed by was, was terrifying to me.

[01:07:46] Um, and as all this was happening, there was still a piece of my awareness that was just watching it all happen and thinking, wow, this is really interesting.

[01:07:56] Cynic: [01:07:56] This is somewhere where I also wanted to share with her, but I didn't want to interrupt. But what she's going to describe now is one of the few things I can confirm from my own experience was this feeling of.

[01:08:12] All of these strange things are, are happening and you're feeling them. And maybe in her case, you're seeing them as well. It was not so much visual for me. It was more totally mental. Yeah, it was all inside. But so it was not totally, it was mental, but also physical. My body was, was doing things that I felt I had no control over it.

[01:08:34] And I remember when I was deep in it. Coming to some realization that I'm watching all of this happen. And then I felt like this little person in the control room watching this body, they have all these involuntary movements. And I realized at some point that because when you're going through it, you're like, you're just at some point you're just in it.

[01:09:03] You're just in it. You're just in. And then at some, and then at some moment I realized. I can actually watch all this happen, but I can't control it, but I can see all this happening. And it reminded me when she said that, that I had that same exact feeling.

[01:09:17] Frank: [01:09:17] The awareness. Yeah. Your awareness is still there, even though in a sense you're in control, but you're not in control.

[01:09:26] You're in control because you still have a grasp of reality. You haven't gone over the edge, but these things are happening as these thoughts are happening. Sometimes the things that you might be seeing, you know, are things that you really can't, you can't control. You're aware of it. Do you know what's going on?

[01:09:42] You know, it's not, it's not like you're going over the deep end, but I get what you're saying, man. And that, that whole kind of concept where somebody is in a control room and you're, you know, that was a really cool visual cause I picture. So push your buttons, looking at your hand, you know, Twitch it, you know, or you're fucking looking around watching all these things happen.

[01:10:02] That's funny.

[01:10:03] Cynic: [01:10:03] It was, it was, it was weird. And then what, because of that, that awareness comes in and out, at least for me, it went in and out. So when I was aware, I was in that state when I was not aware that I was going through whatever my body was going through and I was identifying like, it was me. So it was kind of like a, like, like.

[01:10:24] Thinking of a rollercoaster, like when you're going down a rollercoaster and you have all those rushes of emotions and it's almost like, you know, overwhelming, And you come to the top of the rollercoaster and there's like this peace and calm for a second. And that's how it felt like when I was at the top, I could see, I was aware and then I would feel myself falling into this again.

[01:10:45] And then all of a sudden I was in it again and just all this uncontrollable stuff. So, yeah, it was something that I identified with, um, when, when she said it and I just wanted to

[01:10:56] Frank: [01:10:56] dope, man. Thanks for sharing.

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[01:12:44] Sen: [01:12:44] Um, you know, like, like all of this is happening and like, I can't control any of it. You know? Like I felt like an animal.

[01:12:50] I felt like, uh, you know, like a Savage animal. And the thing is like I'm in my room regular day life, very restrained. Um, I'm, I'm like a very calm. Presenting person on the outside. Um, because I've learned to be that way. And the result was that I had all these emotions that went into their compartments that I just learned to just like, do you know, tap down, tap down.

[01:13:14] And you know, we know what happens when you don't express your emotions. Right. They just like, they come out in other ways. During the ceremony, it was like, okay, let's open up all those boxes. Like let's clear all that shit out. Okay. First comes the sadness then comes the anger then comes the fear. Okay.

[01:13:29] All done. Okay, cool. Now you're done. And then I had a great time, you know, and then we went, you know, uh, into the, into the room and did some dancing. Uh, and, and I was just like, okay. So that, that was what that process was for me. At least one of them, you know, there were many other processes that were happening.

[01:13:44] Um, but it was really like, there there's a plant. Essence. There's a plant entity that is in that realm and it. Does things to you, like the plant will take you on a journey. You know, like I am not there guiding my own journey. Someone else is there. And the shaman is they're also to, um, to help you through the process.

[01:14:06] So there's music played in the background. Our shaman had like, he had like. Oh, a floor full of instruments that he just played the entire night. Um, and you know, like

[01:14:17] Cynic: [01:14:17] I want to find out who she did this with and she said

[01:14:19] Sen: [01:14:19] it was just outside. And, you know, it was like, this is going to be the soundtrack for your process.

[01:14:24] And it was all these, they called them  are the, the, the local tribal songs that are specific to that indigenous tribe and which have been cultivated over generations. And these are the songs that they sing to. To help you along your journey. Um, so it's like harmonica guitar, flute, um, like this, uh, kind of like a harp instrument and various kinds of singing and drums.

[01:14:48] Nice. Um, so it's like, it's just such a, uh, supported and yet such a challenging experience. Like I did the DIY experience once and I was like, I don't know if I need to do it again, you know? Like it was just so, so difficult. Yeah.

[01:15:06] Cynic: [01:15:06] It sounds like I'm sitting on the edge of my seat and I'm like, just, I sound, I feel

[01:15:12] Frank: [01:15:12] like the one time

[01:15:13] Cynic: [01:15:13] thing you went through just from hearing it.

[01:15:17] And, um, yeah, you know, I was thinking, you mentioned a couple of times that you, um, you called it medicine with a big M and I was wondering, like, if you want to share, like, what drove you, like, what made you, what, what made you feel like you needed that medicine? What, what made you go to IOSCO? Um,

[01:15:38] Sen: [01:15:38] I was going through a pretty difficult period in my life.

[01:15:40] Uh, so I was. I mean, I was living in Berlin. Um, I was really struggling with my, my, my career path. Like I was doing this job that I really didn't like. And, um, I was in a relationship that was kind of like, you know, just not going, how I wanted it to go and feeling kind of lost. Um, as we do from time to time, you know, just like, just like what, what is my life?

[01:16:06] And so definitely like depressed and anxious and, um, I had, um, I had been micro-dosing with LSD, uh, for a little while to just like experiment with it. And that was very helpful. Um, and then at the same time, I was like, you know, really getting to, uh, the psychedelic world and, and exploring like, what are the things there were?

[01:16:31] And, um, of course, you know, I came across across Ayahuasca and I had several friends who had had the experience. Um, who recommended it to me and at the time it was just like, yeah, of course, I'm going to try it. Um, you know, it sounds, it sounds first of all, like a really interesting experience and I'm always up for interesting experiences.

[01:16:51] And second, it sounds like it really has the potential to, to be helpful, um, to me in this situation. Cause I felt like I needed like a. Pattern breaker, you know, sometimes you just get into like the same mindset, um, over and over again, like the same habitual, negative thoughts cycles. And, um, and, and it's when you're in that situation and it's been a while that you've been depressed.

[01:17:13] And, um, you can't quite remember what it feels like to be your old self again, as when. You know, that's when I made that decision, I was like, you know, I think I, I want to bring something else in here. And, um, you know, it just seemed like a, a natural way to

[01:17:31] Cynic: [01:17:31] do you think that psychedelics are for everyone?

[01:17:37] No,

[01:17:39] Sen: [01:17:39] I don't think anything is for everyone.

[01:17:44] Yeah, no, I, I think that, um, I agree with the psychedelics can be helpful for a lot of people, um, provided that they know. Themselves enough to engage in that process and provided that they can, um, you know, that they can create the circumstances to the best of their ability to take care of the set and the setting.

[01:18:05] Um, and that they're also aware of any, um, any preexisting medical conditions that could. Make a psychedelic substance, less safe for them. Um, so people who are on psychiatric medications, like antidepressants, especially, uh, uh, medications that have to do with, um, selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors as is our eyes.

[01:18:27] So, uh, Prozac, you know, things like that, um, those act on the same. Neurological pathways as psychedelics do. And so that's when you need to be careful because, um, you know, you know, without getting too much into the neurology of it, um, when you mixed two of those things together, it can produce like a, an amplified effect.

[01:18:46] And, um, yeah. And, uh, you know, and if you are someone who's like already going through, let's say, you know, difficulties with, um, with. Staying in this reality. So people who have psychosis or, um, or schizophrenia, um, you know, they gotta be really careful there because, uh, the psychedelics can intensify, you know, those experiences.

[01:19:11] Um, doesn't mean that they can't also be helpful, but it just, it means that they need to do their research and consult as much as possible. And, um, you know, unfortunately these days, uh, depending on where you are in the world, um, psychedelics that therapists are still not. As available as, you know, classical therapists.

[01:19:33] Um, but, but there is much more information than there used to be. Um, so, so that's like the, the long answer of if psychedelics are for everyone. Um, definitely not. Um, but they can, it can be for people who, uh, are, are. Ready for the experience, you know, and who feel like they're in a place where, um, they could, uh, they could start to experiment with altered States of consciousness.

[01:19:57] Cynic: [01:19:57] Gotcha. I would say thinking just every, every time you're talking, it's got me thinking about all kinds of new questions to ask you. And I know a lot of these things are, are, you know, opinion or, you know, just, we're not, we're not, uh, Yeah,

[01:20:14] Sen: [01:20:14] exactly. Yeah, exactly. These are, these are, these are the ways that, you know, this is how I think about psychedelics.

[01:20:20] Um, this is, you know, where it's just like be informed, right? Like make educated decisions. That's the thing, you know, and that's what I think, um, We as human beings are always doing anyways, like you're curious about something like human beings are curious. That's why we've, we've developed civilizations.

[01:20:39] Um, that's why we, we have the knowledge of psychedelic substances and any kind of scientific discovery it's because we're curious and we want to try stuff and see what happens. Right. So, you know, I, I believe that, um, that we should have the ability to experiment also with States of consciousness, you know, that's.

[01:20:59] Like, uh, just that's my body. It's my mind. You know, I, I would like to be able to do what I want

[01:21:04] Cynic: [01:21:04] with it. Yeah. I'm with you, I'm with you 100%. And, um, it's a good segue, I think, to talk about the stigma of, of these things of the psychedelics, because I think they do exist depending where you are maybe more, maybe less, but.

[01:21:24] I think there is some kind of a semester about talking about things like the substances, where some people are still afraid of them or some people just, um, just in general, think anything that alters your, you know, your consciousness or that maybe where you are not in control of yourself, you know, um, are, are seen as negative things.

[01:21:47] How has it been for you like to just share. Your, um, interest in it and to just, you know, be open about, um, using psychedelics, um, like in your family, like in your personal life, family, friends, and maybe even your professional life, do you feel that you have to be like compartmentalizing these things? Just because,

[01:22:12] Sen: [01:22:12] yeah.

[01:22:13] Yeah. Uh, I certainly do, you know, it's, it's like anything personal that you share, um, you. You want to be appropriate for the context, right. And depending on what kind of life you live and how in alignment, your different contexts are with who you are, um, you have to be more or less careful, like, so. When I was working my corporate job, I'm not going to be telling everyone about my psychedelic experience experiences, even though I'm sure that a lot of people in that company have had the same experiences, you know, it's just like not the space to talk about it because.

[01:22:52] Uh, or maybe, you know, not, not like, you know, at lunch with a full table table of people, you'll find a couple of people here and there who are like, Oh yeah, this, Oh yeah, right. I I've done that. And I've done that, but it's not like, you know, lunchtime conversation, right? Yeah. Um, when I was working for a psychedelic startup, that was what we were doing.

[01:23:12] So, you know, that was like everyday conversation. Um, with, uh, with my personal network, um, I'm very open with, uh, because they're my friends, you know, like the friends that I have are my friends for a reason. Um, and of course, there's, it's not going to be everyone who shares the interest and not everyone who's shared the experience, but typically like the people that I want to bring into my life are people who are.

[01:23:40] Are also just curious about, um, experiences, um, and, uh, you know, and there are going to be people who are, because they're less informed or less experienced. They're going to have some of the preconceptions, the stigmas that you were talking about. Like the first time that I did mushrooms, um, it was with a friend of mine and her partner was.

[01:24:03] Was a good friend of mine. And he was quite concerned that we were doing this and, you know, brought up a lot of, a lot of his worries and everything. And, you know, we just sat there and we, we talked to him about it and, you know, uh, reassured him and, you know, and talked about like what the background of these substances were.

[01:24:20] And, uh, and then it was, you know, he was still concerned, but it was like, no, we're gonna still do it. Right. And. A lot of the stigma I think comes from, um, comes from history and comes from the way that, uh, certain substances have been treated by the government. So, uh, what happened in the sixties and the seventies in the States, especially, um, leading up to the prohibition of psychedelics was that, um, we, you know, there, there were, there were a lot of.

[01:24:53] Like LSD parties happening there was like, um, an LSD revolution happening, you know, that's why that's, that's what we hear about when we think about like the, the hippie revolution, right? It's like everyone's at a festival and like flower power and everything. Like so much of that was informed by psychedelics.

[01:25:11] And, um, what happened was that, you know, sec, uh, LSD was so new to the world at that point that like, everybody just did whatever they wanted with it. Um, and often in really irresponsible ways, like, you know, there would be, this is where you hear about people, spiking the punch with LSD and nobody knowing about it, you know?

[01:25:29] Um, and, uh, and there's, you know, lots of stories about, uh, like this, this bus, um, traveling across the States with like barrels of LSD and just like administering LSD without even without even you

[01:25:44] Frank: [01:25:44] think Steve jobs did LSD.

[01:25:50] Cynic: [01:25:50] Hmm.

[01:25:50] Frank: [01:25:50] I'm sure he did, but every possible then

[01:25:53] Cynic: [01:25:53] it's possible. How much

[01:25:54] Frank: [01:25:54] different will would life be if people didn't. Yeah, you don't know, you never know of the LSD is what open those doorways to these, you know, guys thinking different.

[01:26:08] Cynic: [01:26:08] They attribute that to a lot of the success for musical success then came out of the sixties and seventies.

[01:26:19] I'm not sure how much that applies today, but

[01:26:23] Frank: [01:26:23] all that. Yeah, man. Just saying. Maybe we're seeing evolution happened right between before our eyes

[01:26:33] Cynic: [01:26:33] it's happening.

[01:26:34] Frank: [01:26:34] All right, go ahead.

[01:26:37] Sen: [01:26:37] This, this bus, um, traveling across the States with like barrels of LSC and just like administering LSD without even, without even even measuring how much it was into people's cups and just like leaving a trail of rampage, um, behind them, you know, without kind of.

[01:26:55] Yeah. Yeah, that's a real thing. Um, Oh

[01:26:57] Cynic: [01:26:57] shit.

[01:26:58] Sen: [01:26:58] Ken Casey, Casey, I think, uh, I might be getting the name wrong. Uh, but there's yeah. There's, you know, just like it was, it was a wild time and, um, so that's one part of why the psychedelics became prohibited, but you know, the other reason which is I think a lot more potentially insidious is that as people, um, You know, access these altered States of consciousness.

[01:27:22] They also started to perceive patterns in government structures and understand, and like, Hey, like what's actually happening with, uh, with the words, the way that our country is run. And, you know, you start to ask yourself questions about, about like, why Vietnam war, you know, what is happening there? Like, why is that happening?

[01:27:39] There was, um, there's like a strong, um, Like questioning aspect to that, um, that psychedelics promote and a strong like awareness kind of, uh,

[01:27:50] Cynic: [01:27:50] waking up a bit, isn't it,

[01:27:52] Sen: [01:27:52] there is definitely like, you know, absolutely like waves of waking up and, um, And that's another reason too, to prohibit the substances, like from a governmental perspective, or it's like, you know, all these people are asking questions and they're protesting and it's like, it's not really convenient for us.

[01:28:08] Um, and it also happens at a whole bunch of people are using the substance irresponsibly. So we're gonna use that as the reason to, um, you know, and there's this whole, you know, war on drugs thing, right. Where the war on drugs is like actually a war on lower socioeconomic classes. Uh, you know, and then we're painting all drugs, all the substances with the same black Mark, you know, like in treating things that are highly addictive, like heroin and cocaine and speed, the same way that we treat marijuana and psychedelics that are not addictive, um, in the same way, you know?

[01:28:44] And so everything is under schedule one, which is like the most prohibited, um, Category of drugs and, uh, and you know, the, the substances are not treated with, um, with the nuance that they need to be treated with.

[01:28:57] Cynic: [01:28:57] Yeah. I was really shocked, um, in the last, uh, few months, uh, maybe a year, um, I've been hearing and reading a little bit more about the, the whole war on drugs thing and.

[01:29:11] Some of a lot of all the damage that it's done and, uh, hearing stories about people. Well, people, I sound like just a few, but like millions of people who are in jail for, uh, ridiculous things that are related to like marijuana use or, you know, some benign, uh, drug like that. And so many people have been sent to jail for, for those kinds of.

[01:29:40] Infractions or whatever. And it's, it's a joke because at the end of the day, the things that are actually bad for you. Yeah. Like, you know, the alcohol all and the cigarettes and those things, those things are happy to let the public kill themselves with. And the things like, like you mentioned with, um, Heroin and, and those things that will definitely kill you yet.

[01:30:05] There seem to be also just happy to let them kill themselves with it. Yeah. But these other things that may potentially, you know, give people the, the ability to learn more about who they are themselves and, and question more about what's going on around them. Those are the things that happen to be, you know, throwing the baby out with the bath water and they put everything together and just lump it all together.

[01:30:30] Yeah. It's like you said, there's no nuance. It's a terrible,

[01:30:34] Sen: [01:30:34] yeah. Well, the nuances, you know, is where the money's at, you know, and, and as you say, you know, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, these are, uh, these are substances that are also consciousness altering, but they are not treated with the same. The same kind of, um, stigmatizing perspective, even though, as you said, alcohol, when compared with any other substance, any other substance, including heroin, um, is responsible for vast Lee, more deaths, um, and, and damage then.

[01:31:08] All the other substances combined. Um, and, um, you know, and like we, we get different and alcohol. Right. And, uh, and, and that seems to be all right. So it's not, I don't think that the problem is with changing States of consciousness. Um, it's, it's what's going on behind .

[01:31:25] Cynic: [01:31:25] Yeah, it's a frustrating, frustrating thing.

[01:31:28] What's it like here? Like we, we, you and I both have experience from. You know, the other side of the pond. Yeah. You lived in you're from Canada. You know, I was from the States, I'm from the States, but, uh, do you know much about what it's like here, the law, like how they treat these substances here? Cause I'm not that familiar with it,

[01:31:50] Sen: [01:31:50] not familiar with the, uh, I mean, you know, the substances are, are illegal in the same way as they are in North America, but I'm not sure exactly how strictly they enforce it here.

[01:32:03] Cynic: [01:32:03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know like Europe, I guess generally, but we're talking here we're in Germany. They, they seem to be a little more lenient at least with things like marijuana and things like that. So I guess I we're, we're in Berlin, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're even a little more lenient with, with some of these other, uh, substances, but yeah, in the States it's, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty bad.

[01:32:27] Uh, you can really, you can end up in jail. No just for trying to have an experience that real quick. Now it doesn't hurt anyone.

[01:32:34] Frank: [01:32:34] Not only is it sad, but it's retarded that there's people that are doing more time for marijuana than people that are killing people out there than murderers that gets retarded.

[01:32:55] There's there's people doing more time. For fucking, for a drug charge than somebody taking somebody else's life, man.

[01:33:04] Cynic: [01:33:04] Yeah. It's just

[01:33:06] Frank: [01:33:06] fucking, I understand what your next Pat now, man, I fucking get it.

[01:33:10] Cynic: [01:33:10] I think that those cases usually happen with this three strikes thing. Is it?

[01:33:16] Frank: [01:33:16] I don't know, man.

[01:33:17] Cynic: [01:33:17] I don't know the details, but I know that there are some weird situations where that is definitely.

[01:33:25] Possible and happens, explore for ridiculous charge, like having marijuana and maybe you already had two other issues or I don't know. I don't know the details, but it definitely happens. You're right. And it's asinine.

[01:33:39] Sen: [01:33:39] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that is especially true for, um, for people who have been apprehended.

[01:33:47] With marijuana. Um, you know, it's, it's just like, it's, so it's such an easy thing to target people for. Uh, and you know, there's, there's a lot of historical influences there, you know, that this war on drugs is really like a war on poor people, uh, or certain cultures or, you know, um, yeah, that's and that, you know, with, with the laws slowly but steadily changing in North America, around cannabis, um, and, uh, with.

[01:34:15] You know, retroactive, like, you know, uh, what, what is the pardoning of, um, of certain, uh, offenses? Um, it's like the justice still needs to be served. It's coming slowly, but it still needs to be served, you know, it's just, it's so. Upsetting to see businesses crop up around cannabis, which has just been legalized in, you know, one state in, in, in the States.

[01:34:39] And then, and still have people who are behind bars who were doing the same thing maybe two years ago before it was legalized, you know? And it's just like, um, that's when you really see that it's about the money, not about the substance or the justice.

[01:34:56] Cynic: [01:34:56] How long have you been here? Actually in Germany. So

[01:35:00] Sen: [01:35:00] no

[01:35:02] Cynic: [01:35:02] we've been away from Canada.

[01:35:05] Sen: [01:35:05] I've been, I've been in Germany for six years.

[01:35:07] Cynic: [01:35:07] Six years. Okay. You're so in your, with your experiences that you've had, now that you've gathered in your time with, with psychedelics, have they led you to, like, how did you, did it influence your podcasts? Like how you came to the podcast idea and coming and bringing that together, or was that.

[01:35:27] Did it not have anything to do with that at all?

[01:35:29] Sen: [01:35:29] I would say that it's, um, it's hard to make those direct associations because every experience that I've had with psychedelics, um, Grows me a little bit, you know, there hasn't been real. I mean like once in a while, there's, there's like a definite like peak experience.

[01:35:48] Um, like the first time I experienced LSD was a peak experience because it was the first time I did LSD and I was like, Oh, now I know what this is. And I remember, you know, experiencing my entire body as vibrations and dissolving into all the other things that I perceived as vibrations. Um, that was. That was a very interesting experience.

[01:36:11] Yeah. Did it change my life completely? Um, Not immediately, but I felt like I had access to a world of experience that I never perceived before. And, um, that made me more curious to keep on exploring that world. And the more that I explore that world, that more, that I was like, okay, I understand what other people are talking about now, like on an experiential level, not in a brain level on experiential level and, um, you know, the resulting effects of, you know, Using these tools, um, consistently over a number of years is that I become a lot more in tune with myself and my intuitions, um, like on LSD, on mushrooms.

[01:36:57] Um, I'm I become so much more aware of what my, what my immediate. Perception of a person or a situation is, um, so I can capture the energy and the essence of it. So it's like, if there's something about a situation that. I'm feeling a bit weird about that becomes extremely clear why I'm feeling weird about that on the psychedelics.

[01:37:19] Um, or there's someone in my, in my environment. Um, and, uh, and I'm just like, you know, perceiving them and being with them like, you know, yesterday I was, uh, I was, um, on an LST journey and I was just with, you know, all my housemates and it was just so beautiful too. Um, To take them in, um, while in this other space.

[01:37:42] Um, and I, I, I felt like I could capture who they were better, you know, like there was certain things and I was doing it in the moment as well. It was like, I was able to tell them what I saw about them in a way that normally I might not feel comfortable doing, or I might not feel like I, you know, I was right.

[01:38:00] But in that moment, I was like, this is what I see about you. And. Like most of the times they're like, yeah, that's totally true. You know, that's cool that you can see that. So it helps my perception and it helps me to practice, um, engaging with intuition. So even though like, you know, from one psychedelic experience to the next, I'm not making any regulatory changes, um, with each time I'm like, cool.

[01:38:23] I trust myself more. Um, you know, and, and that means that I can also, when I'm not in the experience, I still have access to that intuition and I, you know, just get better at, at trusting my take on situations.

[01:38:36] Cynic: [01:38:36] Nice. So when you were on your journey yesterday, that you just mentioned it, where you, you were the only one and your, your, your, your flatmates were not

[01:38:45] Frank: [01:38:45] positive real quick.

[01:38:47] Could you, um, explain to the Westerners, what a flatmate is? Cause they have, we don't use that. I know what it is, but they don't use it too.

[01:38:58] Cynic: [01:38:58] Yeah. It's like a,

[01:39:01] Sen: [01:39:01] it's

[01:39:01] Cynic: [01:39:01] like a roommate,

[01:39:02] Frank: [01:39:02] like a roommate. Yeah.

[01:39:03] Cynic: [01:39:03] Except a, uh, so I, I'm not sure how many in how many contexts you can use roommate in, but here you can rent an actual apartment or a flat.

[01:39:14] If you use a British term and, um, some of them are actually made specifically for this kind of a situation they're, they're, they're like, um, not made, but they're there, they're built in a certain way where you have, um, a living space on one side of the apartment and our living space on the other side of the apartment.

[01:39:34] And you might share some like a kitchen or something, but it's one apartment.

[01:39:38] Frank: [01:39:38] I see what you mean.

[01:39:39] Cynic: [01:39:39] And, um, yeah,

[01:39:40] Frank: [01:39:40] they call it a flat.

[01:39:42] Cynic: [01:39:42] Yeah. So w here they do use the term flat a lot. They use the British term for apartment it's in the, at the end of the day, it's an apartment. Um, and they, depending on how big it is, you might have two, three, four people living in.

[01:40:00] In a, in a shared flat now.

[01:40:04] Frank: [01:40:04] Cool man. Thank you.

[01:40:06] Sen: [01:40:06] Yeah, I was, uh, I was, one of my flatmates had taken some mushrooms and I had taken some LSD and, um, but the rest of it was just like kind of chilling, hanging out, you know, seeing what was up with people. Very chill, very

[01:40:19] Cynic: [01:40:19] relaxed. You told me that you were, uh, you know, like going around to your housemates.

[01:40:22] I was thinking so, so is it like. Like being the annoying drunk person, wherever you're the only one who's like,

[01:40:30] Sen: [01:40:30] I like to think of it as I like to think of it as a being, being the visiting Astro ferry, you know, it'd be like, I'm here visiting you, you know, checking you out in your reality and my reality and let's see what we can exchange.

[01:40:45] I hope I wasn't, I don't think I was. I I'm, I'm very sure I wasn't the annoying person, you know? No, I felt like more like I was the, I was the magician of the night.

[01:40:57] Cynic: [01:40:57] Yeah. So I actually, I want to talk to you a little bit before we, we, we, we get ready to go. I want to know more about your podcast, but before we switch gears there, I wanted to ask you.

[01:41:08] You've already shared like some really awesome stories, personal stories, but if there's anything else you want to share or you think would be interesting for the listeners to hear?

[01:41:18] Sen: [01:41:18] I think, um, you know, I'm thinking about people who might be listening, who are curious about psychedelics, um, you know, who might not have had the opportunity to try them.

[01:41:30] And they're like, Oh, I don't know if it's for me or not. Um, is that. You don't have to try psychedelics, um, especially because like, you know, there is a certain level of, of personal risk involved, like, because, because these substances are still unregulated, um, due to their illegal status, uh, you don't ever know exactly what you're getting or how much of it you're getting, you know?

[01:41:59] And so, so that means that, you know, you. Carry the burden of responsibility for making it a safe experience for yourself. Um, which also means that you carry the burden of responsibility for, you know, educating yourself and, um, you know, and, and making that as, as good of an experience as possible for yourself.

[01:42:19] So I think like information is key. And, um, asking questions is key and there's a lot of forums out there. Um, there's a lot of internet resources, YouTube videos. Um, there's just like anything that you could possibly want to know. Google is your best friend, go and inform yourself and make, um, make an educated choice about what you do well.

[01:42:44] So, yeah, and it might turn out that it's not the thing for you and that's totally cool. Um, and also just to say that, um, There are plenty of ways to have psychedelic experiences without using psychedelics. So, um, holotropic breathing is something that, um, has been. In the psychedelic realm. So it's like, this is breathing where it's essentially like sustained, um, high pace breathing.

[01:43:09] So hyper ventilating, intentional hyperventilation, which can produce some similar effects. Um, a lot of kinds of ecstatic dancing can also create psychedelic effects. Um, yeah. Sustained periods of meditation can also produce those effects. Um, I personally think that travel is one of the most psychedelic experiences like traveling to a distant land with a very different culture.

[01:43:33] It's just like that. Yeah, totally. Like when I, I backpacked through India for my, uh, by myself for six months, and that was like the biggest trip ever, you know, just like, Oh, that's what it is. It's like, you know, Changing the way that you think, um, noticing patterns, because your reality now is different from your reality before, um, you know, challenge yourself to do things that are not normal for you.

[01:43:55] Like I find like travel such a, such a trip, you know, like that's why they call it a trip,

[01:44:00] Cynic: [01:44:00] you know?

[01:44:03] Sen: [01:44:03] Cause you go on a journey and you know, that journey can be external or it can be. Yeah.

[01:44:07] Cynic: [01:44:07] Yeah. Good point. That's totally fair. I didn't think about it that way, but absolutely. So, thanks for that. You heard it folks inform yourselves, don't be afraid. It's something that if you do decide to try it, and you've informed yourself about your yourself, about what you want to try, then enjoy it.

[01:44:28] Have a good journey, enjoy whatever comes out of it. So, um, I would like to actually know a little bit more about your podcast

[01:44:37] Sen: [01:44:37] gladly, gladly. Yeah. So, uh, beyond Asian stories of a third culture, this is my lifelong project, which I launched in March. It's a series of personal biographical interviews with people.

[01:44:53] Of Asian X background. So this means like anyone who has a root of some sort in Asian culture, um, but who have also lived in multiple cultures as they've gone through life. Um, so this is what we call third culture people. Um, and this is a project that's very dear to me because I am a third culture person.

[01:45:13] I was born in China. We moved to Canada when I was six. And I grew up in, in Calgary, in the Western part of Canada. Uh, lived there for 12 years. And then I moved to Montreal. The French speaking part of Canada, uh, lived there for 12 years, moved back to China. Um, did a bunch of traveling in between, and now I'm in Germany.

[01:45:31] And so there's just been like, for me, there's been a lot of cultural context shifts in, you know, in the years that I've been alive on this planet. And, um, and with, you know, the constantly changing cultures comes also often this crisis of identity. Um, because who you are is so rooted in defined by the context in which you live in.

[01:45:55] And when you are always changing contexts, you know, your identity is always being thrown into question. You're like, who am I anyway? And this person in this environment, I'm another person in the other environment. Sometimes these two environments have conflicting value systems. Like the Asian value system is.

[01:46:13] Very often in direct opposition to the Western value system and all of the, you know, internal tensions and, you know, and confusion that result from that that's been my entire life. And so I made this series of personal interviews with other third culture, Asian X people, um, to understand how they've navigated their own journeys, to understanding who they are.

[01:46:37] What their version of belonging means how they understand themselves and how they're just moving through life, um, to kind of, you know, help me understand myself first, but to also pass these stories on to anyone else who resonates with that, that kind of like, Oh, like, why am I so different from the people around me?

[01:46:57] And, um, where do I really fit in, in this world? You know, because I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not Chinese enough to be. Chinese I'm Canadian, but Chinese Canadian here in Berlin, I'm North American. Um, but people will speak to me in German, or they'll assume that I'm Vietnamese. No one will assume that I'm a native English speaker and it's just like, you know, there's so many different layers of it.

[01:47:22] Um, so, so that's the podcast. The, the intention is to, um, raise awareness for this notion of being third culture. And specifically to also explore the connections with Asian history, because so much of the, the issues that, um, that people like me, like Asian immigrants, um, experience have to do with the collective trauma that we've experienced from generations past, um, from, you know, really.

[01:47:51] Traumatic events like the cultural revolution in China, from the Vietnam war, from, um, the, you know, from like the, the Chinese Japanese were like all the stuff that we don't think about today, but which informed our parents' generations and our grandparents generations and have therefore been passed on to us, whether we know it or not.

[01:48:11] Yeah.

[01:48:12] Cynic: [01:48:12] That's um, super interesting. Um, I remember when, when you first told me about it, I was already fascinated with the topic. So I, obviously, I I'm, I don't fall into the Asian X category, but I can totally relate to the, the feeling of being, you know, from somewhere living somewhere else and then having this, um, yeah.

[01:48:34] Uh, influence here and this influencer it's, it's hard enough sometimes if you never leave where you're from, if you're just born and raised somewhere, it's hard enough to like, know who you are.

[01:48:46] Sen: [01:48:46] Yeah.

[01:48:48] Cynic: [01:48:48] And now you're plopped into this culture and then you're plopped into that culture. And it's a, it's really challenging.

[01:48:55] And, um, I've had more than one occasion where I've just, just sitting there just thinking. And I just feel like. I don't feel like I belong anywhere. I don't feel like I have actually a home. When I think of the States, it doesn't feel like home. When I think of Germany, it doesn't really feel like home either.

[01:49:14] And I don't feel like I would like I could, I, I mean, I can't walk outside and feel like I would be accepted as a German. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's a strange feeling that I think, um, Not too many people can relate to. Although I guess that's growing with globalism

[01:49:32] Sen: [01:49:32] that is growing. Yeah. And this is the thing is like sooner or later, most of us are going to be some kind of third culture because.

[01:49:40] No one stays in one place anymore, you know, like a globalization. Right. Um, and hopefully with the pandemic, you know, that we're only temporary, temporarily stuck where we are, um, that, uh, we'll still be able to, you know, to, to travel around and, um, and live in different cultures. Cause I think that's what makes life.

[01:49:59] So rich is being able to access different cultures and to understand things from an insider's perspective and also understand things from an outsider's perspective. And just to like, compare what those things are like, he gives you such, um, such a different view on the world when you've lived inside certain cultures and you perceive your home culture.

[01:50:17] Like when I, when I went, um, When I went to India for the first time, um, and I stayed there for an extended period of time was the first time that I thought about how weird North American culture is sometimes. Um, but we never think about that because that's just our every day, you know, Like the things that we take for granted, you're like, yeah.

[01:50:37] You know, drive the car and, uh, and, um, buy a whole bunch of processed food and, you know, throw a whole bunch of it away. Wow. Like, why are we doing this? You know, you're like, I'm in India and like standing in the middle of a slum where people are picking through the garbage piles for food. And then I'm like, wow, that's that's perspective.

[01:50:59] Right. Um, and, and you often need contrast in order to gain perspectives.

[01:51:04] Cynic: [01:51:04] That's very well said, and I think is a good place to, uh, To, to end it for today. I want to thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast and sharing your stories and sharing your, your, your opinions on the topic of psychedelics.

[01:51:19] You know, like, like I said, at the beginning, it's a fascinating subject that, uh, we're both very interested in and I was really, really looking forward to having you on to share. Your perspective.

[01:51:30] Sen: [01:51:30] Yeah. Thank you so much for having you is really fun to talk about all of these things that I'm talking about all the time anyway, and that's out there on the air.

[01:51:38] Cynic: [01:51:38] So, uh, checkout, uh, sends website beyond asian.com, uh, and her podcast as well. It's. And if you have any social media or anything that you maybe want to share, go ahead.

[01:51:50] Sen: [01:51:50] Yes, definitely. So, uh, Instagram beyond dot Asian, um, Facebook. Beyond Asian stories of third culture. And, um, and other than that, we're on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, and a whole bunch of other ones, which are on the website.

[01:52:05] And so if you look for us, we are they're

[01:52:08] Cynic: [01:52:08] awesome. Cool. Thanks again. And best of luck with the podcast. Uh, keep doing what you're doing.

[01:52:14] Sen: [01:52:14] Thank you. And same to you. It's been so fun. Thank you

[01:52:17] Frank: [01:52:17] so much.


[01:52:18]  That was Frank and Cynic on no stone unturned. Talking to them about psychedelics brought back lots of memories about the experiences I've had over the last few years. And reminded me of how much I've learned in the world and how much more there still is to learn. If you liked what you heard on this bonus episode checkout. No stone unturned. They're currently on their second season with episodes on power space cowboys phobias and quite a few other fascinating topics  

[01:52:51] Frank: [01:52:51] That is awesome. Awesome stuff, Cynic. He did a great job Sen. Thank you so very much for taking the time out and coming on this a little humble podcast that likes to shake things up and talk, talk about things that, uh, maybe not always.

[01:53:06] Be so popular, but are important. And things that should be spoken about in psychedelics is one of those, one of those things for me, man, you know, it's, it's kinda taboo, especially here in the States. You guys touched on it, but we got to ask ourselves as a taboo because it's, cause they don't want us to see the light.

[01:53:23] You

[01:53:23] Cynic: [01:53:23] know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, no, I, again, I, I agree, uh, as, as usual, um, I think you hit it right on the head. Um, this is a kind of topic that, especially nowadays, uh, it's becoming more and more a part of the general discourse and it shouldn't be ignored. It's this is like the oldest, one of the oldest things, or one of the oldest human experiences, I should say.

[01:53:47] Um, and we're still tiptoeing around whether we should, you know, Familiarize ourselves with it. So yeah. Thank you to send as well. I'm really happy that we can make that happen. And I'm confident that the listeners will enjoy what she had to bring to the show.

[01:54:04] Frank: [01:54:04] Yeah, man, she was awesome. She was great. And I hope you guys did enjoy that.

[01:54:08] Cynic. We have a new segment.

[01:54:11] Cynic: [01:54:11] That's right. We do. And it's what did we learn today? Is that what

[01:54:17] Frank: [01:54:17] it's a little long. We can just call a recap, but what did we learn today? Cynic. And I'll let you do the honors main. You go first. What'd you learn today, man?

[01:54:28] Cynic: [01:54:28] Maybe mind's going to be a little silly, but. I learned that the sixties was a lot more fun even than I thought there was some dude driving around in a frickin van or something with like LSD and he's just driving across country and filling up cups for these sixties, uh, flower, power partiers, you know, and just.

[01:54:51] Trucking along and just leaving, like scent called it rampage behind them. It's like all these people just tripping out on LST.

[01:55:02] Frank: [01:55:02] I think he was doing God's work.

[01:55:05] Cynic: [01:55:05] That's what I learned, baby.

[01:55:07] Frank: [01:55:07] That's what's up, man. I learned, I learned a couple of things. First thing I learned is don't take her for the woman's a Sikh. She will shoot you in. She will shoot you in the testicle.

[01:55:15] Cynic: [01:55:15] Ouch.

[01:55:17] Frank: [01:55:17] The other thing I learned today was it just reaffirmed for me.

[01:55:22] The natural way that I became curious about venturing off to psychedelics is the way it needed to happen. You know, very similar to Sen. I was a late bloomer. You know, as, as I described before. And, um, and I think it needed to happen that way, because it's all about timing and it's all about you being ready, you know?

[01:55:39] And, um, and that's one thing that I want to, you know, we have a small disclaimer that you guys heard at the beginning of this episode. Uh, but just to tap into that a little bit, this is not to influence anybody to go out and do something, uh, that, that they don't feel they need to do. This is strictly about knowledge and we're sharing our experiences.

[01:55:58] And, um, you know what they say, knowledge is power. You do with it as you wish, but in no way, shape or form, are we trying to influence any fire to go ahead and do something that they don't feel they should do? As she said, it may not be for you. It's not for everybody. Um, but when we talk about timing and we talk about things playing out the way they did, today's episode, just reaffirm that things played out the way they needed to.

[01:56:22] And that's a beautiful thing, man. Vision is a beautiful thing.

[01:56:25] Cynic: [01:56:25] I agree. I agree.

[01:56:27] Frank: [01:56:27] Cause stuff, man. Am I hitting what? The close to that? Anything else you want to add to that? My man.

[01:56:33] Cynic: [01:56:33] No, I think you said it well, and sometimes we just have to leave it where it is. There's no point to try and put anything on top,

[01:56:42] Frank: [01:56:42] just not business, not beat a dead horse.

[01:56:44] You know what I'm saying, man, here we go. Today's quote, as shortcuts to spiritual and transcended experiences, psychedelics played an important role in human evolution and galvanized prehistoric ritualistic cultures. In modern times, bagging psychedelic drugs has proven to be

[01:57:01] Sen: [01:57:01] counterproductive.

[01:57:02] Frank: [01:57:02] Just as banning sexual activity does not stop sexual desire.

[01:57:05] Outline psychedelic drugs does nothing to suppress the innate human urge to transcendental experiences. Besides prohibition rarely works as we saw with alcohol or marijuana, despite their classification and the legal hurdles around working with schedule one substances in the U S psychedelics have undergone something of a resurgence among researchers and for good reason, that's Alex and

[01:57:28] Cynic: [01:57:28] pickled.

[01:57:30] That's such a good point. Such a good point, but I don't think people are going to ever learn. Maybe they will. Maybe they will. W w w we're making small steps. We'll make a small step.

[01:57:39] Frank: [01:57:39] Hey, I'm telling you here, devil auto man, take a trip, take a trip. You can

[01:57:44] Sen: [01:57:44] take a trip and a trip.

[01:57:46] Frank: [01:57:46] Just saying I'm on a trip

[01:57:47] Cynic: [01:57:47] to go on a trip.

[01:57:49] Frank: [01:57:49] Hi man. This is a good one, man. I hope the listeners enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I learned a lot, man. It's was really cool. Really cool. Digging into this a little, a little

[01:58:00] Cynic: [01:58:00] agreed. I hope everyone stuck around episodes a little, a little longer than the usual this season, but totally worth it. And that's why we left it.

[01:58:08] So enjoy it. Meet us here again next week. Same time, same place. Same channel.

[01:58:14] Frank: [01:58:14] Is there take care of yourselves and each other? No stone unturned, baby.

[01:59:18] Sen: [01:59:18] But I don't want to go my mad people. Oh, you can't help that most everyone's mad here.